I don't know about this. I hear the Holocaust mentioned frequently in shul. It's incorporated into at least one major version of Yizkor. Some shuls read a prayer for Israel. It's true they don't commemorate Yom Hashoah. I don't either. As I've said more than once, I live with the Holocaust every day. I don't need a special commemoration.
And do we really need another religious holiday? Another "they tried to kill us, let's eat" holiday? Do we really need to write another chapter in the Tanach? Another Megillah? We don't talk about the Holocaust all the time? Maybe it's just my community, which is a mixed one. I don't know how things roll in the more uniform haredi communities. . . .
Secular (and Reform) Jews, in my view, have actually turned the Holocaust into a religion. I don't think Orthodoxy needs to go that route to prove that it is "living."
I'm not here to argue that Yom Hashoah is necessarily the best commemoration, and we can all have reasonable opinions on the best way to integrate the memory of the Holocaust into Jewish religious life. However, from what I see in various Jewish communities (not just Hareidim) the Holocaust is a historical memory, not a religous one. There's something deeply resonant about liturgy and ritual that embed ideas into our consciousness fat deeper than the secular response you call "turning into a religion", and I don't see that the major Jewish communities and denominations have succeeded in doing that, the few additions that you referenced notwithstanding.
What would a "liturgical" and "ritual" response look like? I think the Holocaust is too big and too close to codify into some sort of official religious what-not, and that doing so would risk over-simplifying and making rigid and rote our response.
That's a very true point, and probably part of the reason why it didn't end up happening. But at the same time, if you want to pass on the legacy to the next generation it needs to be encoded in specific behaviors or else it contains a high risk of belong left to the wayside.
The destruction of the second temple for example was probably (almost) as monumental and difficult for the initial generation to process, but eventually they succeeded in forming the proper responses and traditions which is the only reason why it survived until the 21st century.
(I think a big part of our different perspectives is that you are from a different generation than I am; one which is too close to need or be able to encapsulate the gravity of the Holocaust into a standardized prescription, while my generation struggles to relate to the Holocaust at all.)
The generational thing is true. Like I said, I probably don't go a day without thinking about the Holocaust because of my parents' experience. I don't think the same is true of, say, my son.
In a way. While it is more distant and less resonant overall, at least to me, it feels like it was integrated into Jewish identity which underlies it staying force and therefore will remain for future generations. The Holocaust, on the other hand, remains a fact of history which is both at a danger of being forgotten and also currently not interwoven with the larger Jewish narrative we access every time we engage in Jewish tradition.
The way I have heard it spoken about is through the lens of the broader Jewish framework from the time. I would contrast it for example with Tach V'Tat which remained an isolated event in our national memory and isn't responsive to other elements of our tradition.
To illustrate this point, take a figure like the Ramban for a moment. When the Ramban's name is mentioned is brings along associations related to the core elements of Judaism for many people. This is not because we have specific practices focusing on this specific figure, but because he is directly connected to our general exposure to the Torah, the Talmud, Jewish-Christian relations, plus more. So his place on the shelf isn't a mere text, but tied into the very fabric of Judaism itself. Talk about the Ramban when engaging in any jewish practice, and it elevates the experience being that they are part of the same corpus of tradition. The Inquisition, while not as prominent, also contains such associations (at least for me). The holocaust (again, in my experience), doesn't contain the same associations with the overarching narrative of Jewish peoplehood.
I don’t know where you are, but my Judaism is not stagnated. My teachers are excited, they bring chiddushim, they are warm and vibrant. Maybe we’re talking about two different religions?
If you ever have spoken to children about any of the tragedies which have befallen Am Yisrael, our history is alive, from Ur Casdin to the Holocaust. Admittedly, it is partly because a child does not have a sense of timeline. They understand that there is a continuum from Mitzrayim all the way to October 7th, including our current hero’s and heroines: Agam Berger,p and the various mesiras nefesh that has occurred for the 18 months.And I’m talking about cheder boys and Beit Yaacov girls.
I do understand that we can't do that. Because Judaism has stagnated. Which is exactly what I meant that we have lost the dynamism of the religous response. Nevertheless, I do think that there are still ways to be found that would be significant if we were so inclined. Look at how the state of Israel was incorporated into religious Zionist communities for an example (you don't have to agree to it, but it shows that there are available options).
I don't know why you think we're stagnated when it comes to creating new holidays. We've actually invented 2 or more fairly recently. Ever heard of Lag b'omer or Tu b'shvat. And by the Chasidim, they make a huge deal out of Y'aT Kislev. (Maybe if the Tzionim wouldn't have gotten there first, we could have done something for holocaust)
Fiar enough. However, I don't think those can be categorized as responses to modern events, rather indirect influences which show the evolution of modern day Judaism. The salient difference between these two types of changes is whether religion is being tactically used to respond to the religious needs and realities of a people or the religion simply undergoes developments which may lead in any direction devoid of steering.
I don't know about this. I hear the Holocaust mentioned frequently in shul. It's incorporated into at least one major version of Yizkor. Some shuls read a prayer for Israel. It's true they don't commemorate Yom Hashoah. I don't either. As I've said more than once, I live with the Holocaust every day. I don't need a special commemoration.
And do we really need another religious holiday? Another "they tried to kill us, let's eat" holiday? Do we really need to write another chapter in the Tanach? Another Megillah? We don't talk about the Holocaust all the time? Maybe it's just my community, which is a mixed one. I don't know how things roll in the more uniform haredi communities. . . .
Secular (and Reform) Jews, in my view, have actually turned the Holocaust into a religion. I don't think Orthodoxy needs to go that route to prove that it is "living."
I'm not here to argue that Yom Hashoah is necessarily the best commemoration, and we can all have reasonable opinions on the best way to integrate the memory of the Holocaust into Jewish religious life. However, from what I see in various Jewish communities (not just Hareidim) the Holocaust is a historical memory, not a religous one. There's something deeply resonant about liturgy and ritual that embed ideas into our consciousness fat deeper than the secular response you call "turning into a religion", and I don't see that the major Jewish communities and denominations have succeeded in doing that, the few additions that you referenced notwithstanding.
What would a "liturgical" and "ritual" response look like? I think the Holocaust is too big and too close to codify into some sort of official religious what-not, and that doing so would risk over-simplifying and making rigid and rote our response.
That's a very true point, and probably part of the reason why it didn't end up happening. But at the same time, if you want to pass on the legacy to the next generation it needs to be encoded in specific behaviors or else it contains a high risk of belong left to the wayside.
The destruction of the second temple for example was probably (almost) as monumental and difficult for the initial generation to process, but eventually they succeeded in forming the proper responses and traditions which is the only reason why it survived until the 21st century.
(I think a big part of our different perspectives is that you are from a different generation than I am; one which is too close to need or be able to encapsulate the gravity of the Holocaust into a standardized prescription, while my generation struggles to relate to the Holocaust at all.)
The generational thing is true. Like I said, I probably don't go a day without thinking about the Holocaust because of my parents' experience. I don't think the same is true of, say, my son.
So, right. There will be events this weekend in the Diaspora, but many of us just ignore this important commemoration.
You think the Spanish Inquisition pulls at our “Jew heart strings” more than the holocaust does?
In a way. While it is more distant and less resonant overall, at least to me, it feels like it was integrated into Jewish identity which underlies it staying force and therefore will remain for future generations. The Holocaust, on the other hand, remains a fact of history which is both at a danger of being forgotten and also currently not interwoven with the larger Jewish narrative we access every time we engage in Jewish tradition.
How was it integrated into Jewish identity? Where do you see it mentioned and talked about?
The way I have heard it spoken about is through the lens of the broader Jewish framework from the time. I would contrast it for example with Tach V'Tat which remained an isolated event in our national memory and isn't responsive to other elements of our tradition.
To illustrate this point, take a figure like the Ramban for a moment. When the Ramban's name is mentioned is brings along associations related to the core elements of Judaism for many people. This is not because we have specific practices focusing on this specific figure, but because he is directly connected to our general exposure to the Torah, the Talmud, Jewish-Christian relations, plus more. So his place on the shelf isn't a mere text, but tied into the very fabric of Judaism itself. Talk about the Ramban when engaging in any jewish practice, and it elevates the experience being that they are part of the same corpus of tradition. The Inquisition, while not as prominent, also contains such associations (at least for me). The holocaust (again, in my experience), doesn't contain the same associations with the overarching narrative of Jewish peoplehood.
Interesting. The Spanish Inquisition means nothing to me. The holocaust does.
right
I don’t know where you are, but my Judaism is not stagnated. My teachers are excited, they bring chiddushim, they are warm and vibrant. Maybe we’re talking about two different religions?
If you ever have spoken to children about any of the tragedies which have befallen Am Yisrael, our history is alive, from Ur Casdin to the Holocaust. Admittedly, it is partly because a child does not have a sense of timeline. They understand that there is a continuum from Mitzrayim all the way to October 7th, including our current hero’s and heroines: Agam Berger,p and the various mesiras nefesh that has occurred for the 18 months.And I’m talking about cheder boys and Beit Yaacov girls.
What do you have in mind? Another Taanis? Another bracha in bentching or Shemoneh Esrei? I think you understand we can't do that.
I do understand that we can't do that. Because Judaism has stagnated. Which is exactly what I meant that we have lost the dynamism of the religous response. Nevertheless, I do think that there are still ways to be found that would be significant if we were so inclined. Look at how the state of Israel was incorporated into religious Zionist communities for an example (you don't have to agree to it, but it shows that there are available options).
I don't know why you think we're stagnated when it comes to creating new holidays. We've actually invented 2 or more fairly recently. Ever heard of Lag b'omer or Tu b'shvat. And by the Chasidim, they make a huge deal out of Y'aT Kislev. (Maybe if the Tzionim wouldn't have gotten there first, we could have done something for holocaust)
Fiar enough. However, I don't think those can be categorized as responses to modern events, rather indirect influences which show the evolution of modern day Judaism. The salient difference between these two types of changes is whether religion is being tactically used to respond to the religious needs and realities of a people or the religion simply undergoes developments which may lead in any direction devoid of steering.