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Todd Shandelman's avatar

>>I am no philosopher

Simon Furst -

On the one hand, you are arguably the best qualified of all people to judge that.

But on the other hand, nothing I have read so far of everything you've written, including and especially this article, suggests to me that you are not a philosopher.

(Is there an objective test by which we can determine whether someone is or isn't a philosopher?)

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Andie David's avatar

Agree with your general thesis - but the situation is far more problematic once you question what Theistic meaning is actually supposed to be, rather than the defensive justifying meaning making for the atheist.

Ask a theist what is meaningful in their life and much of what you will hear are the temporary high value salient features any atheist can value....their family, being loved, loving another, contributing to society, work that is fulfilling in that it Enhances skills & virtues, having children, ability to trust others in relationships.....just brain storm what most Theists find meaningful - most of these are embodied, contingent, worldly experiences.

What maybe meaningful to a Theist that isn't available to an atheist ? Prayer ?

Perhaps rituals performed as part of community ?

Perhaps there are secular type rituals that can be part of communities - at the end of the day its still worldly gathering of people sharing aligned values.

(Eg keys say waving Lulav, putting on tefillin, lighting shabbat candles)

However, I think the religious obsession with the other worldly & afterlife type theology CREATES nihillism - that nihillism is an invention created and formed by the ultra religious mindset.

This is the Nietzschean critique that Christianity itself created the requisite structures for nihillism to be possible.(Quite heavy on this in the Anti-Christ)

This is because theistic focus on the afterlife & otherworldly creates a vacuum and negation of this world, the very veridical real manifestation we actually live in as illusionary.

This is very specific to ascetic aspects of religion, very critical of Christianities notion of original Sin and this world as fallen but has plenty validity in Judaism with notions such as this world mearly a corridor waiting for the Palace.

Chapter 4 Mishna 17

Rabbi Yaakov would say: this world is like a corridor (hallway) before Olam Haba (the World-to-Come). Prepare yourself in the corridor (hallway) in order that you enter the Palace.

What if ask why is the Palace meaningful ?

What is meaningful about "Olam Habah" as some perpetual reward ?

Why is perpetual reward meaningful and doesn't collapse into Nihillism ?

Rewards are outcomes of goals and benchmarks in successful teleological pursuits.

Rewards are never perpetual but dynamic and contingent on virtuous activity eg study for exams and the reward is passing or some prize for achievement.

What is meaningful about PERPETUAL or Eternal Rewards, especially for limited practices "in the corridor" of an illusionary reality that's a puppet show Orchestrated by a master engineer ?

Vice versa - what's the point of PERPETUAL punishment in an afterlife?

Failing to achieve a goal [missing the mark] is also a dynamic activity that is worldly with feedback of failure and sometimes ability to learn & grow.

If cannot learn & grow with no agency in an afterlife, what's the point of the suffering.

If can learn & grow with agency in an afterlife, then it's just continuation of this world "corridor" - corridor all the way & no Palace.

My basic point in this long rant, is that once thr notion of a "Palace" in thr afterlife is incoherent and Nihillistic then EVERYTHING in the religious theistic world view is nihilistic- including the corridor (this world)

The Nietzschean sees this world is your reality, become an Ubermensch to make the most worthwhile life NOW, affirming LIVING LIFE as Amor Fati (love of one's fate)

- not wanting life as a nihillist seeking a Palace in some mystical world that when contemplate and analyse it, ends up a figment of the imagination.

I part from Nietzschean view in some respects by affirming we have a high degree of agency but acknowledge that we are also thrown into the world that impinges itself on us forcefully in such a way that we are entangled and part of the world not seperate from it.

The "corridor" in Pirke Avot is our existence and we can choose to make it as much as possible our Palace, and if we don't, the corridor will be a nihillistic void of superficiality and suffering.

The funny thing - much of what makes the corridor of our existence meaningful & valuable are exactly the same as the most religious Theistic values such as raising kids, loving relationships, family values, productive work - even defending your terrorory from invaders & terrorists.

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